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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 15:59:00 -
[1]
The OP has some good points and makes them well.
I for one and intrigued by his ideas and would like to subscribe to his newsletter. |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:03:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Marius Deterium One of the big advantages of Eve is to not be tied to some archtype. If you need DPS, get in a DPS ship, if you need tank, get in a tank ship. If you need reps, get in a RR ship.
Attribute respec just enhances this.
Everyone training everything at the same rate removes diversity.
This is a bad thing.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:35:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Nova Fox but seriously 20 years for every skill in eve is little rediciolose atm,
And how long does it take you to get a single character with the abilities of all classes at max level in WoW or any other MMO? |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:21:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Attribute respec is only the beginning. The next step will be redistributing the trained skillpoints. People will like to change their carrier skills to dreadnought skills once the carriers get nerfed. Or change the missile skills to gunnery, since it took them months to realise that missiles suck. Or fly the current p0wning fotm ship.
If people like that, why shouldnt the company cater to their needs
This is also a fear of mine. |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:35:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Digital Solaris I do agree with the OP that this looks like a NGE feature. But it boggles my mind as to why some people are finding it to be contributing factor to dumbing the game down?
It is not going to affect the game in any way than how spent attribute points can be redone twice a year and how much faster skills might finish. Plus if you don't want to use it, then don't.
How is that suddenly a bad thing for anyone playing EVE?
Because it increases the gap between new and old players while claiming to do the opposite perhaps?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:44:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Si Raven I think the number of points that can be changed is excessive.
On the test server, I have Per 19 with a +3 implant. I can increase that to 30 for only 5M isk! I have another character with a +4 implant. That character can reach 31 Per.
Now, you all know what I'm doing when this goes live!
Exactly my point!
You'll be maxing out your Perc when training Perc skills - and so will everyone else but the noobs.
Won't somebody think of the noobs? |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:05:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sida Hurra
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Si Raven I think the number of points that can be changed is excessive.
On the test server, I have Per 19 with a +3 implant. I can increase that to 30 for only 5M isk! I have another character with a +4 implant. That character can reach 31 Per.
Now, you all know what I'm doing when this goes live!
Exactly my point!
You'll be maxing out your Perc when training Perc skills - and so will everyone else but the noobs.
Won't somebody think of the noobs?
it's not what you want it's what the mass wants. So just stop fighting it. Serioucely it's not 2005, 5mil is nothing nowadays.
The mass of people enjoy listening to Girls Aloud.
Does that make them incredibly talented?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:43:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 11:43:40 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 11:43:09
Quote: Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?
As someone who has 95m SPs I'll be min/maxing every six months since I can do it whilst still playing the game.
However, someone on 5m SP will not be able to do it, and so will lose out compared to me.
And that's why it's a bad idea.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Yeshua Christ Edited by: Yeshua Christ on 11/02/2009 11:47:53
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Quote: Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?
Why should i stop playing? Ill stack per/will the 1st thing i do. It will enable me to get most weapon specs to lv5 and max missile skills + get caldari cruiser/BS lv5. At the time ill still fly old ships im skilled for. 70mil SP doesnt instantly vanish when you change attribs, ya know?
And in that case what does it matter anyway? No new character is ever going to catch you in SP anyway and people love to argue that this game isn't about SP but rather skill. You can't have it both ways. Even taking the SP matter most route then your still looking at gimped training for 6 months on any other skills that don't use those attributes. Say you re-spec 2 months before a major change hits the game and you need to train something else. Well looky here you just royally screwed yourself. It still balances out.
CCP traditionally go with six monthly deployment schedules (although there have been hints that this may change).
It's just a case of synching your min/maxing plan with the deployment dates of patches.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:55:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Digital Solaris
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Quote: Do you think people are going to just stack skills that use 2 attributes for 6 months at a time and stop playing the game where you train what you need to use or what?
As someone who has 95m SPs I'll be min/maxing every six months since I can do it whilst still playing the game.
However, someone on 5m SP will not be able to do it, and so will lose out compared to me.
And that's why it's a bad idea.
As Achura being the dominant choice for new subscribing players, I doubt that is going to happen.
My base stats will be better for traning the skills that I'm improving than any Achura.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:56:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Yeshua Christ SP does not equate to fun in this game.
In which case, there's no need to have attribute repsecs, is there?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:12:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:12:46
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Again why does this matter? Your always going to be ahead of the new characters anyway. So you can afford to min max for a year, good for you then you can get into your stuff that much faster. Hope that CCP doesn't drop the nerf bomb on you after you re-spec and turn your min/max against you.
It's a common complaint among noobs that the vets train faster than them. Such things are important to a lot of people.
The changes will only increase the difference in training speed.
As for the nerf bomb, the effects won't be that great. And if they are, everyone will moan and CCP will cave in as they always do these days and it will be sorted. They'll probably sort it out by making the game even more "mainstream" and allowing SP repecs.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:21:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:21:01
Originally by: Yeshua Christ I doubt CCP will ever allow SP respecs, but if that does happen then they can kiss the current playbase goodbye. I think they know this and will steer clear of it.
People used to say that CCP would never introduce skill queues.
People used to say that CCP would never introduce attribute respecs.
There's lots of things that people thought that CCP would never do, but they did.
Never say never again.
It was also said that players would quit in their droves after the stacking nerf, after the drone nerf, after the ghost training nerf, after the speed nerf and let's face it, after pretty much every other major nerf. Didn't quite work out that way, did it?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:29:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:29:05
Originally by: Yeshua Christ
Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 12:21:01
Originally by: Yeshua Christ I doubt CCP will ever allow SP respecs, but if that does happen then they can kiss the current playbase goodbye. I think they know this and will steer clear of it.
People used to say that CCP would never introduce skill queues.
People used to say that CCP would never introduce attribute respecs.
There's lots of things that people thought that CCP would never do, but they did.
Never say never again.
It was also said that players would quit in their droves after the stacking nerf, after the drone nerf, after the ghost training nerf, after the speed nerf and let's face it, after pretty much every other major nerf. Didn't quite work out that way, did it?
No but none of those changes would essentially turn this game into WoW in space. SP respec would pretty much universally **** off everyone at once not just one subset of users. Completely negates SP at all, might as well just give every Character the ability to use everything from the start.
Please don't say that SP respecs would turn Eve into WoW in space - CCP's accountants might be reading this!
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:39:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Noriko Rei
If Achura is such an overpowered bloodline, perhaps CCP should adjust the balance problem with initial attribute distributions rather than making the characters' genome just another module to be changed.
That would certainly be another option, but I still thing that the best solution would be to introduce more Cha skills.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 17:12:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 17:14:59 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/02/2009 17:12:10
Originally by: DrAtomic Edited by: DrAtomic on 11/02/2009 17:06:28 I totally fail to see why this is bad... Planning your skilltree ahead and adjusting your attribs accordingly will speed up skilltraining which is taking way too long anyway.
That's your opinion and of course you're entitled to it. However, there are many people who don't think that training times are too long. The last thing the game needs is a situation where everybody can do everything, and long training times help prevent this.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 12:22:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Cypher V
ps. Bare in mind that the people that DON'T want this change will also be training just as fast as the people that do want it, it won't change the fact that you're ahead of them SP wise. ie: Stop whining.
Agreed, it won't change the fact that I'm ahead of the noobs in SP terms. In fact, it will widen the gap.
Yet I'm still against it even though I'll be a major beneficiary of the change because I think that it will be bad for the game.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 14:32:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Moonmonkey At first I liked the EVEs skill system but over time it becomes clear that the system is flawed. I mean I can start a new account and train up an alt without ever having to play it. I wish CCP had of gone for a UO type system in which you became more skilled by lets say flying a ship type or firing a weapon type. At the moment you set a 30+ day skill, sit around waiting for it to pop or go out side into the real world. They is nothing you can do to speed it up, maybe it would be better if the skill system and attributes were totaly change. Scrap the attributes all togetter or have them have a real in game effect. More dps or defence. Reduce skill training times so that no skill takes longer than a few days to learn. The skill system doesn't add to game play in any way.
In many ways, Eve's skills system is what differentiates it from the other MMOs out there.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:02:00 -
[19]
Originally by: TraininVain You're just saying that because you're an Achura.
I agree with him, and I'm Amarrian
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:15:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 12/02/2009 15:16:46
Originally by: Rennion See, I think this mechanic suits eve. EVE (and eve players) have always touted that there is no "class system" "you can be what you want to be" but at the end of the day if you are not achura you are gimped.
Now you can truly maximise the potential to be what you want to be and at the same time face consequences (you are locked into a 6 month training plan, better make damn sure you made your mind up). This is an informed choice that favours smart gamers.
The whole attribute system is creaking because it is an old school mechanic, re-building it from the ground up would be the best fix but that would cause even more nerdraging and whining from people who hammerd learning skills for 2 months straight and so on.
Something had to change, this is the change, it could be a hell of a lot worse.
I'm not Achura.
I don't feel gimped.
But anyway, if Achuras are the problem, then why not change just the attributes of new Achura characters rather then destroying the whole system?
Or maybe they could make Charisma useful?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:18:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Noriko Rei While I would prefer to see the respec go the way of the dodo, I like the idea (if it must be implemented to attract the WoW crowd) of making this a real money service, much like changing our characters' faces, only much more expensive.
The difference there is that your portrait has no effect on the game.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:49:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 12/02/2009 15:49:41
Originally by: Noriko Rei
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Noriko Rei While I would prefer to see the respec go the way of the dodo, I like the idea (if it must be implemented to attract the WoW crowd) of making this a real money service, much like changing our characters' faces, only much more expensive.
The difference there is that your portrait has no effect on the game.
I understand, Rodj, but do you really believe that CCP is going to set this aside when so many $$$ in subscriptions are going to be attached to it? No significant number of players is going to quit over this because even if we don't like the damaging effect on the game, we're still going to take full advantage when they put it in. New people who want easy mode will take a more serious look at EVE and start paying (or continue paying). Making attributes utterly irrelevant isn't about anything other than good business in securing a bigger share of the MMORPG market.
Since CCP is not going to abandon this absurdity, it's reasonable to make it a rather pricey character service to deter a fair portion of people from abusing it. Very few people would spend even $10 on such a service (regularly), so making it $50 and limiting the number of times it can be done might help mitigate the damaging effects.
Sadly, balance seems to have been ignored in this decision. The very concept of balance is that to gain one advantage, you must diminish another. With regular respecs, players will be able to have every advantage with no legitimate ill effect. The idea that a player is locked into a 6-month plan is not a disadvantage, as the player was clearly planning that 6 months of training before selecting the proper respec.
At the end of the day, my good man, CCP will make money from this. They stand to gain new players, and losses will be negligible, at most. We might as well prepare to enjoy our new easy mode training.
If I wanted to play a game that focused on maximising popular appeal and shareholder revenue, I'd be playing WoW.
But it just so happens that a lot of us started playing Eve because we wanted something a little different from the norm, and we're disappointed every time the game moves towards what I shall politely call the centre ground.
These changes are the equivalent of a Michelin star restaurant adding Big Macs to its menu.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 16:34:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Noriko Rei
Originally by: Rodj Blake
If I wanted to play a game that focused on maximising popular appeal and shareholder revenue, I'd be playing WoW.
But it just so happens that a lot of us started playing Eve because we wanted something a little different from the norm, and we're disappointed every time the game moves towards what I shall politely call the centre ground.
These changes are the equivalent of a Michelin star restaurant adding Big Macs to its menu.
I'm with you, Rodj, as the training system has been one of the finest examples of why I prefer EVE to every other MMORPG I've played. I simply have no confidence that CCP is going to adhere to the old axiom: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. They seem to have been distracted by: The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
There's no way you or I can squeak loud enough to drown out thousands of subscribers who want guaranteed maximum training efficiency at all times. Perhaps being Amarr, you have a bit more faith than I. I, on the other hand, expect that this will be introduced as "every 6 months" and later changed to "every 3 months," then eventually changed to "whenever a player has the ISK to pay for a respec."
Let's not forget after every expansion.
"Free respec for every character so they can take full advantage of the new Ambulation skills"
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 17:14:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Moonmonkey
Originally by: Dari Anoh
Originally by: Moonmonkey At first I liked the EVEs skill system but over time it becomes clear that the system is flawed. I mean I can start a new account and train up an alt without ever having to play it. I wish CCP had of gone for a UO type system in which you became more skilled by lets say flying a ship type or firing a weapon type. At the moment you set a 30+ day skill, sit around waiting for it to pop or go out side into the real world. They is nothing you can do to speed it up, maybe it would be better if the skill system and attributes were totaly change. Scrap the attributes all togetter or have them have a real in game effect. More dps or defence. Reduce skill training times so that no skill takes longer than a few days to learn. The skill system doesn't add to game play in any way.
I personally quite like the skill system still, even after having played for over 4 years now. Being able to progress my character in terms of abilities regardless of how much time I'm able to put into the game in a given week or month (RL has its ways of sneaking up on you sometimes) is still something I see as a great thing. Also, because it does just that: it gives my characters abilities, nothing more. It still requires actual player skill to put those to good use. And I'd hate to park my ships in an asteroid belt to shoot at asteroids for a few hours to improve my gunnery skill (as an example).
I'm not saying the skill system doesn't have its flaws, but I think this attribute respec is a very nice way of improving it. As for the respec itself, while I do see the issue that old players can more easily 'afford' to min/max attributes seeing as their larger skill collection will grant them more abilities while optimizing their training, I still think the benefits (as I've mentioned earlier in this thread) are greater.
Also, a new player can get his or her 'basic training' done in those first six months, get a sense of what they'd like to focus on as they get to know EVE, and then after those first 6 months choose to modify their attributes in order to optimize their skill training.
You like the system because you don't have to do anything to progress. I don't like the system because I can't do anything to progress.
There is no player effort in the system and its the system that holds player progression back. Which is strange after all as the rest of the game is based around grinding isk to replace pvp loses.
And how will allowing attribute re-specs change Eve into a game where you grind for XP?
Seriously, if you want a game where your character improves by shooting at a certain number of enemies, there's dozens of them out there on the market.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 19:02:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Moonmonkey
I never said it would but as they are changing the attribute system it shows that the system as flawed.
No, them changing the attribute system simply means that that they want to change the attribute system.
There's a few different motives that that they could have for it.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 23:04:00 -
[26]
Originally by: gnshadowninja I love the system, You do realise that 6 months is a fairly long time? lol.
Shadow.
Six months may be a long time in other games, but not in Eve.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 09:07:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Armoured C
Originally by: Ergebt Euch @ 20 years of skilltime arguement, that people bring over and over again: If CCP wanted everyone to train faster, they could introduce +6 or +7 implants. Those who want all the skills, and only in this case the 20 years arguement is vaild, would gather enough assets after few monts or years to be able to afford them. Minmaxing simply sucks. There shouldn't be diffrent attributes for diffrent races or even better, no attributes at all, with minmaxing they are obsolete anyways.
then what would be the point of different races
it good for different change cus then there are no charater like yours
everyone is unique
What's the point of having races when re-specs will mean that everyone can have the attributes that they want?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 12:31:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Rennion Anyone saying that 6 months is not a long time needs a reality check. Long term multi-year players are not the norm in eve, you are not the majority you just think you are because you gravitate together.
Most players have come and gone within a 7 month timescale. Most players ahve accounts inactive for vast stretchs of time and a literal ****ton of the 2003 characters have had multiple owners.
The thing is, that those players who only last seven months will be at more of a disadvantage SP wise after these changes. |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.13 14:16:00 -
[29]
Originally by: MILK Monk well, I do not understand the panic around this. Trying to see devil in "nothing"... hmm... basicaly what this change means in a single point?
Lets assume you will use the "ideal" optimized plan per 6 months - you will save approximatelly 1-2 months of learning skills = you can do things a bit sooner than you can do it now
THATS ALL... it is bull**** that you can maximize your character in everything and has some uberleet char... you will still specialize in what you want to train for at least 2-3 years and then maybe you can train other skills... so what is SO bad about it? Only one thing will change, you will be able to skill up faster, nothing else, people will still be focused on specific areas, they will just go to training more skills to lvl5 and I think that it will only lead to more spcialized chars then we have now... my 2c :)
The problem is that more experienced characters will benefit more than newer ones.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.17 08:20:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Karrade Krise 6 months is a long time. I predict many people will whine when they realize they will train really fast in one thing...then when they want to train something else...they still have months left before respecing and training anything else will be slow as hell.
6 months...That's between 8 and 10 Mil SP. (Give or take a bit) You better have one hell of a skill plan if this is the route you want to take.
EVE MON is going to need a programing for figuring out the most efficient specing when dealing with multiple class skills.
But that's the point!
Old timers will have no problem at all spending six months training up using only two attributes.
Meanwhile, new players will be left with a choice of either gimping their training speed relative to the veterans or gimping their fun.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.17 08:21:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Kraven Executus lol the OP rerolled Asian Invasion to "optimize" his stats and he doesn't want the people who stuck with their original toons to be able to optimize without rerolling.
fail post, imo.
So it wouldn't have been a fail post if I'd have made it?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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